tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post1028904908346343987..comments2024-02-13T12:50:30.457-05:00Comments on Rants Within the Undead God: Deciphering the Myth of CompetitionBenjamin Cainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-58942281919129903432014-08-31T07:06:31.806-04:002014-08-31T07:06:31.806-04:00I suspect that irony is an indicator of reality as...<i>I suspect that irony is an indicator of reality as opposed to illusion. Wherever you find the sort of irony that makes life look ridiculous, there you'll find the truth of what's really going on.</i><br /><br />Possibly a side topic: I think irony is where one intent is assumed, but another intent entirely is found to be at play. When neither quite lives up to the moment, perhaps for a moment with see an intentless world.Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-6789473070093262192014-08-30T22:04:15.547-04:002014-08-30T22:04:15.547-04:00I guess it's in several parts.
A: Prompting o...I guess it's in several parts.<br /><br />A: Prompting other 'dupes' (like me) to question the psychopaths on how things works plays right into the psychopaths hands, as it kind of advertising 'if you ask questions, you'll get honest answers!'. Which the psychopaths like people to think, so people will injest their lies more easily.<br /><br />B: Society is not a designed structure. Thus no one really knows how it works, they just speculate.<br /><br />This makes asking metric questions about how we live and whether we could live another way hard, since if no one knows how the whole thing works, how can you ask questions about how it works?<br /><br />So even when we get away from intent questions, there's no easy result - metric questions are still incredibly hard to formulate as well!<br /><br />I'm just sort of raising that difficult position were left at for possible discussion of it, as I have no definate answers for it, I feel.<br /><br />I guess this helps with my poster drafting, as maybe I'm not describing that problem position terribly well?Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-12124166846464310282014-08-30T09:29:52.767-04:002014-08-30T09:29:52.767-04:00I see now your distinction between lies that have ...I see now your distinction between lies that have to do with intent and practical questions whose answers can be more easily verified, but I still don't see your overall point. Are you saying societies run themselves regardless of whether there are godlike psychopaths along for the ride at the top of the social pyramid? Are you saying the leaders or parasites are superfluous? Maybe you could tell me in plain language what your main point here is and how it relates to my articles on our corrupt overlords.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-56866455324399748632014-08-29T06:24:33.766-04:002014-08-29T06:24:33.766-04:00There's some kind of talking past each other.....There's some kind of talking past each other...I still don't understand why you said the following:<br /><br /><i>I'm not sure I see your point about whether psychopaths would lie.</i><br /><br />I mean, ostensibly we're honest with each other about how things work - including the structure of how we live.<br /><br />Psychopaths would simply lie to tell you you're in structure A when really you're in sucky structure B.<br /><br />I don't know why you mention 'Spenglerian' or such and think I'm asking how things can keep going? I have no trouble understanding how something like that can keep going - it's just a con job that keeps going because con jobs keep going when they aren't revealed.<br /><br />I'm not sure what's happening here? Anyway, I tried to outline the difference between intent questions and metric questions. Asking 'is the string long enough' is an intent question. Asking 'is the string 10cm long' is a metric question. It is much harder to lie on the latter (because it is much easier to get caught lying)Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-2274345232853507942014-08-28T14:35:06.608-04:002014-08-28T14:35:06.608-04:00I talk about the wrong done by the subcriminal psy...I talk about the wrong done by the subcriminal psychopathic leaders, in an earlier article, adapting Lewis Mumford's account of the megamachine. Then again, I'm torn on these leaders. They degrade their workers but they're also outsiders, like the ascetics and outcasts (omegas), as I say elsewhere. So I'm not so interested in moralizing here. It's not about traditional ideas of good and bad, but existentialist, aesthetic ideals of originality, creativity, and artistic inspiration. The psychopathic form of human predation is by now quite cliched (the pathology of being corrupted by power, surrounding yourself with sychophants, etc etc). <br /><br />The real question is whether we should strive for equality or face the possibility that social divisions are needed, based on an inevitable split between exoteric and esoteric understanding. In the latter case, the opportunity will arise for self-serving or enlightened individuals to exploit the ignorant masses. Those who lack a conscience, because they've been corrupted by power, can be enlightened in their own way, meaning they can detach themselves from social conventions and face harsh natural truths.<br /><br />http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2014/05/domestication-and-modern-personhood.html<br /><br />http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2014/06/subhumans-outsiders-and-glimpses-of.htmlBenjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-70502494154974649752014-08-28T11:46:14.047-04:002014-08-28T11:46:14.047-04:00Brian, I agree that societies are mixed with regar...Brian, I agree that societies are mixed with regard to virtues and vices, so health shouldn't be equated with flawlessness. I'm speaking of health in narrow, existentialist terms. The question is whether the majority believes in its culture's ideals and myths. If so, it's healthy in certain respects. If not, the culture is degenerate. Ancient Roman culture was pragmatic and simplistic from the start. It didn't take long before the masses craved spiritual depth, which they got from Eastern religions, including Christianity. <br /><br />The medieval period was healthy in the existential sense even though life then was rough, to say the least. Mumford explains this well in The Condition of Man. Rationally speaking, medieval culture was preposterous, but what has reason to do with art? In aesthetic terms, medieval folks were "living the dream," which is to say they believed so fervently in their spiritual ideals that they applied them everywhere they turned. They were effectively creating their lives as art for art's sake. Postmodern folks, by contrast, have no ideals but only irony.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-86853924915313479162014-08-27T00:10:15.845-04:002014-08-27T00:10:15.845-04:00I'm not sure I see your point about whether ps...<i>I'm not sure I see your point about whether psychopaths would lie. You seem to be wondering how a society that's based on lies, or on exoteric delusions, can carry on. I see this in Spenglerian terms. In its heyday, a society is propelled by its healthy culture which inspires the majority. The modern period of the West is paradoxically one of...</i><br /><br />I was asking about hard logistics. I'm not sure if I didn't make this clear that's the issue or that you went on to talk about some sort culture thing is a significant issue in itself.<br /><br />I mean, do psychopaths really matter in and of themselves? Or is it that they'll work you like a dog or abandon you to the wilds, calling it civilisation? And 'worked like a dog' can be broken down into measurable units - hours worked. Physical labour done. Time spent traveling to work. Etc. And this can be examined against what it actually takes to live and by it we could say the life were currently forced into to is unnecessary and possibly even a foul deed (by the psychopaths)<br /><br />You seem to be talking about psychopaths just being bad perse, Ben? Without any measure of various ways of living (and a measure of how they might be forcing us vs one which better matches a natural human lifestyle)?<br /><br />Apart from forcing millions of people to get up at hours that don't really match their biology and forcing them to waste part of their precious life span traveling just to get to work they don't want to do (and similar things that can actually be measured), what's a psychopath done to actually be called bad?Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-78042830472765894292014-08-26T19:09:17.449-04:002014-08-26T19:09:17.449-04:00But when did this "healthy" period exist...But when did this "healthy" period exist, except for brief periods? Just looking at Western history, the Roman Empire as "healthy" in that it conquered the known world, but it quickly devolved and eventually became the Dark Ages. The Renaissance was a glorious era of art and science and thought, but it was also amazingly corrupt from a governance standpoint. <br /><br />Isn;t human society ALWAYS a combination of corruption and health? There wer cynics during the heights of the Roman Republic. Dante's Inferno is certainly cynical. Brian Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-79245581180040296062014-08-25T09:34:23.197-04:002014-08-25T09:34:23.197-04:00As I say in my YouTube debate with Inmendham, natu...As I say in my YouTube debate with Inmendham, nature doesn't play games (because nature is undead). We play games in our microcosms. <br /><br />I'm not sure I see your point about whether psychopaths would lie. You seem to be wondering how a society that's based on lies, or on exoteric delusions, can carry on. I see this in Spenglerian terms. In its heyday, a society is propelled by its healthy culture which inspires the majority. The modern period of the West is paradoxically one of technological progress but also of cultural decline (rising apathy, cynicism, anxiety). So after God's death, thanks to science, we need replacement myths such as the scientistic or capitalistic ones, but those myths aren't authentic to our culture. They're makeshift stories that dehumanize us, delusions that keep Western society going as we rationalize the failures of democracy and liberalism and capitalism and our inability to deal with the obviousness of atheism. We need our noble lies to pretend our culture isn't in decline. <br /><br />Of course, much of our globalized society is superficially automated and that has to do with technological progress. But if the masses lose heart, if they realize their conventional, materialistic or pseudo-Christian ideals are actually loathsome, they could riot as they do now in Ferguson in the US. Our machines aren't yet self-sufficient, so even though our modern societies seem invulnerable, they depend on the noble lies that distract the masses from a litany of horrors.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-3449090050342757932014-08-23T23:54:32.662-04:002014-08-23T23:54:32.662-04:00Hi Ben,
What is the game inside the fake game?
Y...Hi Ben,<br /><br />What is the game inside the fake game?<br /><br />Your questions essentially rely on honest answers, I think. Thing is if you ask your fellow 'dupe' these questions - they'll just ask the psychopaths in the end. Who'll lie - so possibly the direct question is actually playing into the psychopaths hands?<br /><br />Or possibly the questions ask about intent (of which the psychopath simply masks their true intent/lies) and it's that that plays into their hands.<br /><br />I mean, if you ask 'Is the string long enough', the psychopath will lie. It's an intent question. If you ask 'Is the string 10cm long', the psychopath may lie, but one might measure it oneself at some point.<br /><br />Of course the thing how the food and resources infrastructure actually keeps going is mostly a hodge podge affair. So how do you ask a question on how society keeps going, when no one really knows anyway (the psychopaths just manipulate the hodge podge pile for their benefit, not really knowing how it works)<br /><br /><br />On a side note, I don't think power corrupts. I think it just amplifies the corruption that is already present. I unthinkingly step on many ants as a cross the lawn. Make me a giant and who do I unthinkingly step upon now?Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-550720636886237282014-08-21T09:24:26.855-04:002014-08-21T09:24:26.855-04:00I think it was Aristotle who talked about the iron...I think it was Aristotle who talked about the ironies of political systems that transform into their opposites. He said that democracy is undermined by demagogues who become tyrannical. Hegel too said a lot about ironies in historical processes (theses and antitheses coming together to produce transcendent syntheses). <br /><br />I suspect that irony is an indicator of reality as opposed to illusion. Wherever you find the sort of irony that makes life look ridiculous, there you'll find the truth of what's really going on.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-75784721762856410862014-08-21T09:17:26.149-04:002014-08-21T09:17:26.149-04:00Is the capitalistic cult of competition a game? Ma...Is the capitalistic cult of competition a game? Maybe in some ways, but I see this as more of a natural process of selecting the strong (the psychopathic) to rule over the weak (the dupes who fall for the myths of competition or of the king's divine right to rule). Whether it's a capitalistic system or a communist one or a monarchy, somehow power always gets concentrated and that corrupts the rulers, which turns them into the psychopaths who have historically been worshiped as the gods (or as the models for the theistic gods).<br /><br />So there's a con going on here, a division between exoteric and esoteric knowledge in the field of economics. Is competition the ideal for capitalists? Or is it a means of producing rulers who no longer need to compete because they form monopolies, etc? Is economic competition for everyone or just for the weak? And does competition elevate talent and greatness or just plain old evil? Food for thought... Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-1351636990579246262014-08-21T06:00:34.902-04:002014-08-21T06:00:34.902-04:00Thanks for the reference to the Dunning-Kruger eff...Thanks for the reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect. The only game I enjoy playing is online scrabble via Facebook, at which I win a fair amount of the time. But I play it for fun and the maintenance of word power and numeracy. If you are right, the best 'the incompetent/weak' can hope for is to be incompetent at corruption, where competence means being competent enough to become habitually corrupt and blind to your own corruption. I am sure I would not want to be 'a winner' at that rate. Also I am sure that my disbelief in competition is very far from the old accusation aimed the working classes that when they found virtue in their relative poverty it was 'inverted snobbery', an accusation which I find deeply contradictory given the wealth of people who used to make it. Bearzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11288030980271753436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-59870074923084477822014-08-21T05:33:34.112-04:002014-08-21T05:33:34.112-04:00I'd say no, it's just bad game design. Che...I'd say no, it's just bad game design. Check out board gamer geeks who decry board games which ensure those who are losing just keep on losing.<br /><br />The reason those winning the game got/get away with it is the just world fallacy people have as well as the Dunning-Kruger effect of the majority thinking they are smart or talented enough to win (like, they just will. No consideration of the opposition levels. They think they'll win no matter what). Regardless of how much the 'game' allows those who are already winning to stack the odds against those who are not.<br /><br />Sorry for posting so much - sore point for me.Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-12034143677887092222014-08-21T04:37:03.870-04:002014-08-21T04:37:03.870-04:00Was it C.G.Jung who came up with the idea of how t...Was it C.G.Jung who came up with the idea of how things and ideas keep turning into their opposites? Would this go some way toward explaining how competition as meritocracy, when applied and theorised about, rendered abstract, becomes the human tendency towards monopoly oligarchy and oligopoly? Part of the process of theorising 'fair competition' is the attenuation of hierarchies into ever greater extremes of power/control and social disempowerment? Sufficient for the language to create a social underclass of people who, however intelligent they might be, cannot escape their 'loser' labels or the malign suspicions of those at the top of the hierarchy? Bearzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11288030980271753436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-37159983911863151512014-08-17T21:48:47.230-04:002014-08-17T21:48:47.230-04:00I'm a bad reader, I'll note from the outse...I'm a bad reader, I'll note from the outset. But is this touching on the idea that basically the CEO's and government put out properganda that if you just work real hard you'll do well - in other words, saying that the world is one big game. And in games if you do well, then you do well.<br /><br />Except no game is actually provided. Ie, this pimps the just world fallacy (nice cartoon, btw) into a just game world fallacy, hijacking it to make people think they are at a game (and again the principle of a game is if you do well, then you do well - which is fair enough).<br /><br />But really they are pitted against the wilderness. It's a bit like if started a 'game' of a marathon through a forrest, telling them there's a trail and if they follow it they'll make it to the finish line.<br /><br />But there's...just whatever there is out there. And I've dumped them out there. With this lie.<br /><br />Of course it's a matrix moment. What the hell are you going to do even if you grasp this - the land you're living on requires the currency of their game, even as to get it you're left facing the wilderness. To get food requires the currency and again you're left to the wilderness. You're Neo in that pod, waking up, but with no bad ass ship to come rescue your ass. Even if you realise this gig, you have to play along with the fake game or you are f'd!<br /><br />All hinging on an exploitation of the just world fallacy - that and the martial enforcement of the government or a landlord owning the land AND the natural enforcement that it both takes months to grow food AND it's hard to do so off the bat AND it takes land (see government/landlord from before. Try just declaring a patch your own - you'll see the gang who wears blue, very shortly).<br /><br />Do you have any ideas for advertising this (apart from via a blog), Ben? I was thinking putting up a poster on one of those poles they have for advertising (irony!). But I guess I'm ahead of myself - is what I'm saying kind of similar to what you're saying? I guess what put me off doing so is a lack of quorum on the matter. I didn't know how to get it across to dozens of strangers if I can't get it across to even one other person. So am I way off track in describing this, or am I partially repeating you (hopefully the latter)?Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.com