tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post6608597231210417137..comments2024-02-13T12:50:30.457-05:00Comments on Rants Within the Undead God: Can we Transcend the World's Monstrousness?Benjamin Cainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-25319118227838671812016-08-31T16:51:48.956-04:002016-08-31T16:51:48.956-04:00Sounds like good advice to me, Logan. Indeed, suic...Sounds like good advice to me, Logan. Indeed, suicide wouldn't be so heroic, although a show like The Walking Dead raises the question of whether still having faith in our species even after the catastrophe of the zombie apocalypse wouldn't be as absurd as monotheistic religious faith currently is. There's a character in that show who I think eventually chooses to kill herself but who first looks with pity in her eyes at her sister who would rather go on struggling despite the horrific risk of being eaten alive by zombies. <br /><br />There may indeed be extreme cases in which life is unbearably absurd and suicide is the only responsible choice. More precisely, it's not then a choice between life or suicide, but between two ways of dying, one by being eaten by zombies, say, and another, more peaceful and self-controlled way. Or look at those who jumped out of the Twin Towers on 911. Their choice was between that terrifying fate and burning to death. We're going to die either way. <br /><br />Anyway, I am generally against suicide. My point is that suicide may not be absolutely wrong under every conceivable circumstance (such as the end of the world).Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-82325904190647383082016-08-27T19:35:24.030-04:002016-08-27T19:35:24.030-04:00If the world ends , the most heroic thing to do in...If the world ends , the most heroic thing to do in my opinion is just to sit back and watch it happen. Be proud you were lucky enough to see that part and maybe have a party celebrating the absurdity of existence. Definitely more heroic than suicide or fanatic and desperate prayers to a non existent god. Unless it's the rapture... Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13927483136875413353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-61037441690610420402014-08-10T08:49:37.536-04:002014-08-10T08:49:37.536-04:00This is actually the first example I gave on RWUG ...This is actually the first example I gave on RWUG of existential heroism, the end of humanity as depicted by Olaf Stapledon in First and Last Men. See my article, Inkling of an Unembarassing Postmodern Religion. <br /><br />No, in that situation, assuming we were certain of our doom and had no way of preserving our species or of rescuing certain members, like in Superman, procreation wouldn't make sense. <br /><br />But what exactly do you mean by "nihilism"? Do you mean an absence of values or libertinism/Sadism/Satanism, that is, the freedom to take up any value or goal, such as murder, rape, etc, given that all values are arbitrary? Would you advocate suicide/living in a cave were the world ending soon? Or megalomaniacal evil and anarchy? Nihilism seems consistent with either of these options. <br /><br />Anyway, I think the RWUG philosophy would apply even to this most dire situation. After all, we all individually die after only several decades, so adding the possibility of mass collective death doesn't fundamentally change the existential predicament. Death is mainly what makes life absurd, tragic, and horrific. How we learn to deal with that fact determines our character, our moral worth, and whether we're human (nearly enlightened), transhuman (alpha god/oligarch or omega/enlightened ascetic), or subhuman (deluded and enslaved beta).<br /><br />I'll check out the website. I note that it says right away that readers should reconsider if they're contemplating suicide. Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-28376105812610964012014-08-08T22:19:58.896-04:002014-08-08T22:19:58.896-04:00What if the world were to end in a couple of decad...What if the world were to end in a couple of decades? Would it make sense to procreate?<br /><br />What kind of existential heroism could be displayed in that case?<br /><br />I found an online community that believes we're heading to extinction in the near future based on scientific data. You might want to check <a href="http://guymcpherson.com/" rel="nofollow">Nature Bats Last</a>.<br /><br />Could this be a scientific basis for nihilism? Ardegashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06084510248484446401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-61443966524891414512014-08-01T09:11:59.266-04:002014-08-01T09:11:59.266-04:00A solid reason for procreating (i.e. continuing ou...A solid reason for procreating (i.e. continuing our species), knowing that natural life is horrific and absurd? Nature is much more interesting with life in it than without. No one would be around to appreciate that fact if there were no life, but that’s irrelevant. Likewise, even if everyone were happy about their life because of their delusions, the fact would remain that their life is absurd. But even absurd life is more interesting than no life. What’s most interesting about life is that it provides the opportunity for a kind of payback through existential rebellion against monstrous nature (i.e. for degrees of ascetic withdrawal and renunciation). Again, undead nature can’t appreciate the irony when sentient creatures use their talents to thwart the genes and create transcendent, unnatural habitats in which we can play god, but once more, epistemology isn’t metaphysics. Whether anyone knows about some fact or has reason to believe it’s true doesn’t affect the truth value, assuming the fact in question is objective.<br /><br />Note that I’m not saying everyone should procreate. As I’ve explained elsewhere, those with the darkest worldview might not make for fitting parents. But they might still cheer on others to procreate, to continue our species, if only for the comedic value our exploits provide those who’ve been initiated into the esoteric circles of wisdom--not to mention the value of existential rebellion.<br /><br />I agree that just knowing that nature is monstrous doesn’t make you a hero. The heroism comes from the acts of rebellion, from the critical thinking which acts as a screen against irresponsible myths and delusions, from renouncing cheap opportunities for happiness, and so on.<br /><br />Can those who suffer a lot afford to be heroic in this ascetic fashion? Perhaps not, depending on their afflictions. So others can be tragic heroes on their behalf. Indeed, Buddhists and other ascetics withdraw from the charade of natural life largely because they’re horrified by their knowledge that *everyone* suffers.<br /><br />My values are aesthetic and ethical. What I do is reconstruct morality in aesthetic terms. So if suffering is bad, I think of this badness not as a case of violating anything like a divine commandment (since there’s no God) or as a case merely of physical pain (since contrary to utilitarians like Inmendham, the fact of physical pain isn’t self-evidently bad). No, suffering is bad because it’s disgusting and grotesque. As I explain in “Life is Art” and “Morality, Living Art, and the Undead Muse,” all things can be interpreted as artworks in so far as they’re creations that are subject to aesthetic reactions. Natural forces create; therefore, nature is full of art.<br /><br />I understand your point that an aesthetic evaluation of suffering is revolting if this means a trivialization of that suffering. You want to say that suffering is objectively bad, not just bad as a matter of arbitrary taste. But the way I think of aesthetics, aesthetic value comes out as objective; indeed, I compare the aesthetic attitude with scientific detachment and objectivity. (See “Life is Art.”)<br /><br />Anyway, thanks very much for your incisive comments. And thanks for reading!<br /><br />http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2013/11/life-as-art-morality-and-natures.html<br /><br />http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.ca/2014/02/morality-living-art-and-undead-muse.htmlBenjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-53313881256066561722014-07-31T12:18:44.569-04:002014-07-31T12:18:44.569-04:00'suffering is only a spectacle to be evaluated...'suffering is only a spectacle to be evaluated aesthetically when you're not the one suffering'<br /><br />And in fact the notion of evaluating suffering in an aesthetic manner is revolting and runs the risk of falling into the worst kind of Nietzschean hyperbole.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16333013979246343381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-62462600919150597242014-07-31T12:16:11.026-04:002014-07-31T12:16:11.026-04:00Let's leave aside the utilitarian take. Can yo...Let's leave aside the utilitarian take. Can you provide one good solid reason for procreation knowing what we do about existence? And what is the point in producing 'tragic heroes'? The world doesn't need them, or anyone else, and simply because one is aware of life's futility doesn't make one 'heroic'.<br /><br />Nor is this tragic heroism, assuming it exists, much use to those being blown to bits/dying of cancer/suffering from daily abuse etc etc. Suffering is only a spectacle to evaluated aesthetically when you're not the one suffering. Be careful not to fall into the 'aesthetics as anaesthetics' trap.<br /><br />But thank you for the post. I thoroughly enjoyed it.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16333013979246343381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-68234973143757751042014-07-31T08:38:25.575-04:002014-07-31T08:38:25.575-04:00My view has always been that the best we can do is...My view has always been that the best we can do is to be tragic heroes. This article supports the tragic part. So my view hasn't changed. And I still don't think it implies antinatalism, as I explain in my YouTube debate with Inmendham and in my article on AN. <br /><br />The key question is whether the good of tragic heroism is outweighed by the harm done by the tragedy of natural life. In a nutshell, which is more significant, the tragedy or the heroism? The antinatalist needs an argument showing that the ethical and aesthetic values of our heroic virtues--the emergent, transcendent properties of creativity, black comedy, etc, as I put it in my YouTube debate--count for nothing compared to the suffering that happens because natural life is tragic (we're part of an undead god decaying to nowhere, etc). <br /><br />That argument typically takes a utilitarian form, but I find that sort of reasoning crass and unpersuasive. Let's not confuse speculative philosophy with mathematics, as though we were dealing here with quantities that can be measured, as opposed to qualities that must be evaluated by aesthetic taste and ultimately by an existential leap of faith. Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-52288700702707636912014-07-31T05:37:31.583-04:002014-07-31T05:37:31.583-04:00I assume therefore that given the above you now wh...I assume therefore that given the above you now wholeheartedly support antinatalism. I fail to see how you cannot.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16333013979246343381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-1195112824588474582014-07-30T20:17:06.101-04:002014-07-30T20:17:06.101-04:00Thanks! Just to clarify, as I did in an earlier po...Thanks! Just to clarify, as I did in an earlier post, I'm not putting an end to this blog, but because of my new job I have less time to write. Still, I have lots more to say! The next one will be on myths about competition.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-75935952469658525262014-07-30T08:45:22.685-04:002014-07-30T08:45:22.685-04:00Good to see you back, Ben. I've been needing a...Good to see you back, Ben. I've been needing a bit of cosmic perspective of late, despite the depressing short story I just completed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-10259071798451020962014-07-24T08:58:32.493-04:002014-07-24T08:58:32.493-04:00Yeah, this article's a reminder of why I speak...Yeah, this article's a reminder of why I speak only of tragic heroism for naturalists and atheists. In the end, we all receive bad news as sentient creatures. While we're here, we can either suffer relentlessly in nihilistic anticipation of our dismal fate, demean ourselves by retreating to exoteric delusions, or make the best of the existential situation with esoteric wisdom, including pantheistic religion, aesthetic sensibility, and dark comedy.Benjamin Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661999592897690031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320802302155582419.post-55827150018544430392014-07-22T17:48:43.025-04:002014-07-22T17:48:43.025-04:00Wow, Benjamin. This is a PARTICULARLY bleak piece...Wow, Benjamin. This is a PARTICULARLY bleak piece! Not even the (feeble) hope of salvation through nihilism here! <br /><br />I would say bravo, but I'm not sure that would help any! Brian Mnoreply@blogger.com